Purist or Modder?

[MartinW]

This link was posted up on the MGOC BBS:
Ebay Link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/mgc-gt_W0QQitemZ230161100303QQihZ013QQcategoryZ29757QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

The car and its seller have been mercilessly slagged off and rubbished for the wholesale rape and pillage of a rare classic MGC GT! And that's by people with their cars converted from r/b to chrome bumper or with bigger engines or even those contemplating a Hoyle suspension upgrade!

One member even suggests that there should be a Listed Grading on classic cars to prevent this modification of classics!

I agree that the asking price is a bit steep for an unfinished project, but given that genuine Sebring cars fetch up to £50k, this is not bad.

I agree it could be argued that he should have used a rubber bumper shell instead.

But is the MGC that rare with nearly 10k Roadsters and GTs made?

So would you "butcher" a classic?

[Tony]

Surely as the owner of the car, it's up to him what he does with it. Personally I admire the engineering skills that go into a job like this.

If it was finished and featured in a magazine article, I'm sure some of the knockers may not be so keen to shout.

[Matt Lynham]

I think it all depends on what's classed as a "Modification". Changing components to make the car more suited to modern driving I feel is fine; modifying / upgrading the suspension etc; however I dont wholly agree with modifying just for the sake of it just because you can.

[Brynmor530]

Just don't get me started. I'm seriously considering forgetting all about the MGOC forum. I'm tired of the usual few attacking anything that isn't 'original' in their eyes. Hoyle is fine but Supra rear suspension isn't? How can that be? Hypocrisy at an astounding level. Rubber to Chrome oh that's fine because 'we' don't like those rubber (sorry for the pedantic) plastic bumpers anyway.

It's based on an MGC but with a decent straight six engine instead of that stupidly heavy, underpowered old truck engine. Yes it can be tuned but still weighs more than a Sumo wrestlers convention. What about Ford 5 speed gearboxes? Again seemingly aceptable even though it's based around Ford components but fitting something from Japan into it. THE HORROR!!! Err, pretty sure most of the new parts fitted to mine are made in Japan or China. All this rubbish about 'losing the character of the car. Some people aren't interested in the character of the car from a driving point of view but love it as a base vehicle to modify. Seams to me that only the chosen few of the MGOC can decide on what is acceptable and what isn't and woe betide anybody straying from the approved list of modifications.

[Tony]

I think there are three ways of owning a classic car.

The first is to keep it absolutely standard and pristine. The second is to make a few subtle changes to improve reliability or longevity. The third is to go all out and make it something really personalised.

All are equally valid. If you were playing with something worth many thousands of pounds that was made in extremely limited numbers then I can understand the pureists calling for it to be preserved, but then if someting like that was affordable to you and appealed, you'd probably want to keep it mint anyway. Almost anything that was mass produced isn't exclusive enough to warrant such attention.

[MartinW]

Feeling better, Bryn? :)

Must admit, I'd join you if you left the Club! Not that would upset anyone, but I would miss my fix of Roger Parker's excellent modifying articles!

[KelV6]

So few people modify in such an extreme manner, I don't see anything wrong, personally I'd love to see it as a finished project, but the price is a bit OTT.

[JC.]

Actually... the rarer the car the more personalised they get!
Look at the Aston Martin owners club.
Most of the guys on there have had their DB4/5/6 cars modernised with air con, PAS, sat nav, interior mods. Most get bored out to 4.2 litres. Not many remain at 4.0 litres.

As another example, look at classic bentley owners. They change entire bodyshells!!!

[RachelJMGBGT]

I know i said it was horrid on the forum - dont like the colour (ok girl thing) it looks tatty and is not worth the price. On a funny note when i first got my B i thought i would be a purist but as time has gone on well Martin knows im not any more! Other comments on that thread of far over the top they would fit in well with my local MGOC group where i would no longer be welcome one for what ive done to the my car and 2 they have seen me out with TR's!

With that said i will be keeping my rubber bumbers on forever and dont really like the other look.

[GTK]

I don't understand it either; i think it is quite good. I like the colour and i like the wheels. I like the sebring body conversion. Outdated suspension is one of the biggest criticisms of those people trying to "modernise" their classics, so i can't see what he has done as being any different.

What is the difference of putting a T series turbo, K series, or changing the B series to a v8; if compared to changing the C6 to a supra6? I don't see the difference.

There are many examples of sebring replica MGCs around and many owners have uprated their Cs to run triple webers etc (I love visiting Doug Smith's place and drolling over his many varied examples of 'fettled' Cs; it makes me think i should have bought one over the B, but then being young and foolish i didn't know about the C when i bought the B...). How are these "race replicas" any different to this?

From the outside it just looks like a sebring B/C; to shoehorn all that lot into it and it still retain the silouhette of the car is remarkable IMO.

Many people slag the C off and say it was always the poorer cousin to the B, but then moan when someone produces what (on paper) could be a very good car. I don't think they can have it both ways... As KelV6 says, so few people take it to the extreme, does it really affect the numbers that much?

The only original MG i have ever driven was JC's before he started his v8. Every other MG i have ever been in has been changed in some ways, from either the interior, to a stiffer ARB, to then whole suspension and engine changes... It's nice to be able to have the chance to do this to a car and see what difference it makes - whatever the car is.

The only criticicsms of this car are; bodywork is not brilliantly finished (not that i can truly criticise as the GTK's is looking a bit scruffy around the edges again!) - parts of the sebring could have been done much better and that i believe his asking price is too high. These conversions never sell for the money they cost to build, so if you are going to do it, do it for your own reasons. It would be the same if i tried to sell the GTK. What things cost and what the market will pay are two very different things. I wonder what the reaction of the very first home Bv8 conversion was..?

~PHIL

[GTK]

I agree it could be argued that he should have used a rubber bumper shell instead.


I disagree with this actually. There "are" differences between the MGB and MGC bodyshells; most noticeably at the front due to engine/front suspension issues. Nonetheless they make the cars completely different in character despite being similar to look at.

I can see the logic in buying a C and when thinking about "improving" it, attempting to fit a modern 6 cyl. It is still an "MGC" if this is done IMO. If you took a RB 4 cylinder and put a 6 cylinder engine in it, you have NOT made an MGC...

Besides which, why is it more acceptable to take a RB B shell and butcher it? I thought more CB B shells were made in total? If this is the case, shouldn't RB shells be preserved as being the more rare examples..?

~PHIL

[MartinW]

The guy who did the K Series VVC is also keen on the idea of a C with a BMW 6 - I guess that would be acceptable to many as it is not Japanese! Yet, there's probably more heritage link between the BMC stuff and the Japanese thanks to agreements in licensing!

As I said, I agree it could be argued, because I also wondered whether the issue of the front x-member would have affected the installation.

On teh issue of the body work - to make judgements based on a few photographs is a little difficult. With the Sebring rear wing this is normally a one piece so the photo showing the curve from the rear arch into the wing is presumably the original g/f moulding but yes, attention to detail! But then again, how many concours race cars do you see?

From a further posting it would seem that the C has a very low survival rate, around 10% in terms of numbers known to the MGCC, or 3% still on the road - yet there always appears to be a few for sale!

As JC said with regard to banger racers on another thread on the MGOC BBS, people are quick to bemoan the loss of another classic, but let's face it, where were the punters with the cash/chequebooks in hand waiting to rescue it in the first place? And more astutuely, as pointed by the young fella, this C may have only been fit for scrap and overlooked by the purists as not worthy of saving - we don't know that he took a concours car and modified it?

And yes, driving JC's car was a real hoot in the days before he got hooked on mods!

[Rally Matt]

cars are only tin boxes. If you want to do something different and its yours then away you go, its not going to stop the world spinning is it!

Its amazing to see the double standards at work on this though, I bet there are not many cars over 20 years old that are genuinely original, there will be some little mods here and there, this is just moving the line further.

Perhaps its what MG should have done!

[KenH]

I think it great, someone thinking outside the normal box and making a car with a bit of a difference.

Whats in a colour, you can always change it.

Plus whats the difference between that and fitting a S2000 engine and box in a MGA none in my book.

Fair play to anyone who takes the time and effort to finish any project, mods rule....:)

[RachelJMGBGT]

I think they may ban us that have modified our cars from the owners site soon - its got really nasty on that thread now!

[zamo]

when i had my bgt with the sebring kit, i had moden style stearing wheel,h4 head lights with angel eyes, loud s/s exhaust and at my local mg club it met with 60/40 against.some said it had been butchered and one man called it ugly(he drove a ford fussion:puke1:) which broke down on a trip to moldsworth.if i would have been able to keep the car,there where 2 ways i was going to go with it,the 1st was a v8 the second was the b16 honda vtec.what would they have said about that,i think i would have been kicked out:D.unless you have the car as a classic show concorse car,then do what you like and dont listen to the old farts in there flat caps and pipes.

[RachelJMGBGT]

I really hat consorse ones they should be used!

[MartinW]

....they should be used!

Yes, yes, I know!
:tongueout

[MalcV6]

A guy who looked at my V8 last week didn't buy it because "... the car is too good to pull apart to modify so I will have to look for one which has been "seen to" a bit" - he's already got a 250bhp Austin Healey 3000... nuff said :)

I'm not too bothered about classics being modded provided a good car is the end result, the V8 4x4 Midget to name but one, although I have to admit I wouldn't want to be the one to "see to" a previously original car.

[520SR]

I'm sorry but the MGOC are a bunch of fuddy-duddies.

The MGB, MGA, MGC and Midgets are all flawed. Not one of them is a perfect car to drive and if something can be tweaked with the aid of modern technology or the altering of basic parts then there is no godly reason not to do it.

The really sick/sad people, I think, are those who spend a small fortune getting their standard car to concourse level.

Why?

So you can take it to the odd show and collect even more rosettes to the fact you have wasted you life away polishing your tyres.

I think that the MGB is one of the best cars for modding because it has so many options, such a huge collection of parts available and is such a fun wee car to begin with.

Modding is the way forward.

[MartinW]

Whilst the look of a modified car is always going to be personal taste, it's interesting how many have simply looked at the pictures of it and said they don't like it! Which is fair enough, personal opinion is good and it would be a boring old world if we all liked or disliked the same things.

However, right now, as it stands the car does look bland - what it needs is some strong contrasting colours in orange (Gulf style!) to accentuate some of the curves. It needs chrome to add sparkle to draw the eye to key points such as the grille etc.b And it needs some period looking tyre sizes, not the elastic bands it has on now.

It's being able to see a final product in my mind that I focus on. And that is what is attractive about the blank canvas for sale (albiet the price being a bit steep!).

[Brynmor530]

Not all of us MGOC members are old fuddy duddies 520SR. It's just a very vocal few of the club forum who like the sound of their own voices to much for my liking. However I do think that the vast majority of the club is err how should I put it....Set in their ways.

[GTK]

As Martin says, most of those appear to slag the car off at first glance, where the lot of us who appear to appreciate it (even if they might not like' it) seem to have a better grasp on what is required to undertake such a conversion and therefore offer a doff of the cap towards the chap.

I was a little confused by what he meant by the widening of the body; do you think he means just arches, otherwise that is serious work!!

I believe one chap was arguing that if it was a sebring racer it would be ok..? Why is that? The only difference between the outside appearance and that car is the paintwork and wheels! Both of which can be altered.

The only difference under the hood is a suspension change and an engine swap - presumably both of those could be altered too. Those with CB cars converted to v8 can't exactly say that can they? The CB shell needs mods to accept the v8.

Those with hoyle rear suspension are not fit for comment either!

~PHIL

[RachelJMGBGT]

I'm sorry but the MGOC are a bunch of fuddy-duddies.



Im certaintly not either!

[JC.]

Im certaintly not either!

what can we call you instead Rachy? ;)

[GT]

Even back in the late 90s when I had my MGB GT I was seeking to get the carbon fibre dash trim and decent alloy wheels! I even looked at colour coding the (rubber) bumpers!

[520SR]

Just for reference I'm a member of the MGOC too.

I'm just not an active memeber as the mods I've done to my Bee would be seen as desicration, as I have put in a loud sound system. I did frequent the MGOC BB for a while but the stuffy attitude and anti-modding brigade got too much for me.

I appreciate that there are other members out there with a similar 'do it as you want it' attitude, but the big mouths of the 'that's not how it's supposed to be' group tend to drown everyone else out,

As for that MGC/B on eBay, well I like it but at £15k someone is having a laugh. Martin's right too in that it needs a contrast colour to break up the blue.

No sure about adding chrome to the overall scheme though. If it was highlighted with a pearl white then yes, even if there was a dark accent colour. But a luminous colour like orange, I think would need the car to stay clean of superficial brightwork.

[GT]

I suppose that I too, was an MGOC member... in fact it was the MGB Supersports that inspired me, and all the kit was from the MGOC catalogue!

[MG Mal]

I agree with modding of sorts as I have done it to most of my cars.
(polly bush's/tyres/wheels/interior spec/suspension etc)

If I owned say, a rare 'pre-war' or early 'post war' car that was hard to find, then other than using modern/scratch built parts due to none exsistant spares, I would keep it as close to factory as possible.

Any model of which there are a plentiful supply of cars, it should'nt matter.

In some ways modifying brings 'fresh blood' into the fold, and ensures a continued interest in the mark.

I remember a young lad at duxford some years ago, who arrived with a modded (V8) ZB Magnette.

He got some real stick from the so called purists, but plenty of praise from the true enthusiast's for his work and attention to detail.

If theres only a handfull left, then keep it factory.

If theres plenty, then have fun and do what you like.

There will always be plenty of original spec cars around to keep the balance.

mal.

[MartinW]

As some of you know, I owned this... www.austinapache.co.uk (http://www.austinapache.co.uk)

It was one of only two in the UK, and in terms of the South African side, one of few still on the road there. I was tempted at the time to modify it, possibly in a reversible way such as a hotter A+ Series and minilite alloys etc, but then I got thinking about a K series and other not-so reversible things like electric windows etc. So I sold it to an enthusiast whom I knew would keep it original.

That said if I could get a decent 1100/1300 I might still consider that one day but yes, with the MG C, it is rarer than a B, but then again, the rubber bumper Bs are getting rarer too as everyone converts them too chrome bumper, and shoves a V8 in them!

[RachelJMGBGT]

Getting a spare set of rubber bumpers for mine this week end i think. A guys coming to get my origianal wheels - which seem to be quite hard to get hold of the club dont have any LOL

[blackmg]

Rachel,, how dare you modify your B, not original wheels on it,I don't know ,,what ever next :tongueout:flowers:

[RachelJMGBGT]

hmm theres a few other things on mine that aint orignal too - thats what makes it more fun :dancing:

[blackmg]

what other mods you done?,, glad you are enjoying your "B" all modded up:xyxwave:

[GTK]

I'm still not sure i agree with those that say they wouldn't even modify a pre-war, etc, but it does depend on circumstance and/or tastes. I don't really enjoy very early models of motor cars; to me they are too far removed to things i enjoy about motoring - the cars look too much like 'carriages' than cars IMO.

The one exception to these are the pre-war racing cars. I'm really quite interested in some of those; particularly those that were often bought and re-bodied for racing. Also there was a lot of really quite unique stuff done to variuous model cars that have been lost over time. In particular there was a single seater MG that made it into EMG when i was still in the UK (back around '04 i think). I can't remember hardly anything about it now, other than it had a 1.4 supercharged engine in it and was a rebadged 'saloon' car of the pre-war era. But it was relatively successful and by all accounts went like the old "S" off of a shovel... To me, the engineering that went into producing that car, not just the engine work (supercharging can still be considered to be cutting edge nowadays so what was it back then?) but also the re-bodying.

Those people that stick ridgidly to saying that all original models should be preserved - exactly what are preserving them for?

For just as many people who take an example of a rare standard car and turn it into something different, there are those that take something that is historically unique and different in it's own right and remove the unique things to turn it back to an example of a "boring" run of the mill saloon car that it could have been - in the name of "preserving the marque for all". This shows that they have no respect or interest in the differences that the car had undergone and for what that car represented of the time.

For example in the US, there is a unique B roadster that was built and modifed over time by a semi-successful am/pro-am racing driver for his own requirements, who eventually supercharged a x-flow engine. This had not been done before (or since to my knowledge), yet the guy did it and did it successfully. Many people of that era remember this B, but did not copy it (i honestly do not think they had the knowledge to do it), nor do they remember what happened to the car. In the last 5 years someone has found the car, recognised it and is now rebuilding it. He found the car stripped of all/many of the unique bits that it had, the engine having been stripped and replaced with one of "normal" B tuning bits that anyone of us could find in the local MG shop. I never even knew about this car until i read about it over on the supercharging page of the enthusiasts BBS, but to me it would be an absolute travesty if someone had taken that car and made a tartan red chrome bumper B roadster with club leather seats (with the obligatory red piping of course), wooden steering wheel etc. The changes the car went through are unique to it and deserve a place in MG history; the car deserves to be restored and put back into the local circuits of cars from the same era that have survived and continue to be shown & raced.

In summary: I would rather the interesting ones survived.

[GTK]

Some info on the original owner/driver of the s/c x-flow
http://www.motorsportscentral.com/al-pease-bio.asp

Some info on the car including pics (from the restorer):
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?41,248794,248879

Incidently - having googled those links, i note that others are having a bit of a crack at the s-flow,&s/c route, i guess since the resurgence of s/c popularity thanks largely to the moss kit.

~PHIL

[RachelJMGBGT]

what other mods you done?,, glad you are enjoying your "B" all modded up:xyxwave:

Well he havnt really done them just got a second hand bored out recon engine with a few other bits. Its certainly a lot better than a 1800 standard engine now and sounds so much better too!

[MG Mal]

with the MG C, it is rarer than a B, but then again, the rubber bumper Bs are getting rarer too as everyone converts them too chrome bumper, and shoves a V8 in them!

Or shoe-horning a T16 into them! :hit1:

Mal.

[ncarring]

I thought this thread was b*ll*cks when it cropped up on MGOC too, and I said so. However...

I wouldn't want to modify my car to look wierd, although I'd be happy to improve running gear so it was safer and faster to drive. I bought it for kinda nostalgia reasons, so it seems silly to change it to something more "modern looking".

For those who complained about the colour - it's primer, FFS! It's not painted yet. :D

[MartinW]

I see the topic of the hot debate is back on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/mgc_W0QQitemZ230215851526QQihZ013QQcategoryZ29757Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) but at a much reduced starting bid.

[KenH]

Hehe for once its not me:)

[GT]

Although I kind of like whats being done, and the final look - the part that would concern me is that the car is widened 3 inches?

Does this mean the car has literally been cut in half and put back together with a 3inch bridge?

[DaveW]

Let me give you my two pennyworth.
I was THERE at the time - in the 70's. I can still recall the thrill of sitting in a brand new B. Most of you will never be able to do that, but imagine a car you covet now and how good it is to sit in it. For three years I went with a family friend on 1st August (when the reg suffix changed) to Kennings in Sheffield.
73 he bought a new Spitfire with hardtop in yellow.
74 he bought a new BGT in pale yellow (name escapes me now).
75 he bought a new BGT in Carmine.
In 74 Kennings had a brand new Tundra (Green)BGTV8 on a turntable in the showroom.
Those are great memories. I had secondhand MG's from being 19 but for me the thrill is in re-living those times. The mates, the girls, the outings, the whole thing. And that's why I chose to keep my V8 as original as I can. It would be easy to make it faster and better, but that's not why I have it.
If I wanted a faster/better BGT I'd buy something like a TVR.
I enjoy looking at modded cars - I gave the MGOC the nod about Perry's V8, after I saw it at Silverstone and encouraged them to feature it. I admire his enthusiasm & resolve.
Do what you want to do, but please don't criticise others who chose different routes.

[mgbv8]

If I had the money. I would have a factory MGB GT V8 absolutley concoursed to the nuts. Well over the top with gold plated nuts and all.
And then I would have a Factory MGB GT V8 ripped to the tits with a stupid engine and as fast as fook.
I cant afford the first one, but I'm halfway there with the second one. (Maybe 5 years to completion)

The beauty of an MGB with a V8 is that you can make it quicker than just about any production car in the world for not a lot of money. And it fits in a small garage!! :))

Horses for courses indeed. I look at concourse vehicles and trailer queens and I salute the effort that has gone into them. But a lot of the concourse guys dont realise that they have gone just as over the top with their motors as the kid with the 15 grand Corsa at a modded car show.

The idea with modding is that we try to make our cars unique. And a concourse MGB or any other Concourse classic is a heavily modifed car. Despite what the owners say. They didnt come out of the factory that way. Therefore they are modified. Does that make sense?? It does to me.

Why do folk think that modding is just restricted to performance or body kits?. Because it aint.

FWIW

Perry

[GT]

Well said, I think there is an art to modifying, although the term 'modifying' is often associated with £15k Corsas, whereas 'custom' is a term I often hear associated with concourse and classics.

As with any field, its often spoilt by the few, in this case cheap, knackard, under-powered super-minis with unpainted, partially finished 'Jap' bodykits, driven by people who probably shouldn't have a license(!) can ruin the reputation of those who do it properly, sensibly and have a real passion for the art.

Perhaps I should get off my soap-box now, I think I've made myself sound bad enough :D

[MartinW]

Perhaps I should get off my soap-box now, I think I've made myself sound bad enough :D

You CHAV!

:xyxwave:

I do agree with Perry, too, and yes, I respect the effort people put into their hobby, even if it isn't to my taste. unfortunately, too often I see threads that have been started that link to an Ebay advert (such as how this thread began), or I see photos of "modded" cars with lots of cynical comments from the holier-than-thou brigade - why? Live and let live!

We'll have to see what people think when the BGT rolls out the garage this next month with its unusual re-style!

[GT]

Dont tell me you've put chrome bumpers on it? :eek:

I dont mind modifying, but I confess to speaking my mind in a holier-than-thou tone when it comes to people pretending their cars are something they are not...

Like a Rover 200 with a naff bodykit and Halfords wheels being sold as an MG ZR!

[MartinW]

Sure, Blue Peter creations with Kelloggs boxes and yoghurt cartons are not a good advert for the cause!

No chrome, rather the lack of chrome in the usual places is probably what will be the contentious point.

[RachelJMGBGT]

Dont say you have got it a MOT at last Martin!

[MartinW]

Just about, Rachel! It would fail at the minute without the wipers, lack of headlights and mirrors and no number plates! A day's work plus a service and it will sail through (he says confidently!)....

[JC.]

It seems our favorit MGC is back on ebay!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/mgc-mgb-mgbv8-sebring_W0QQitemZ230238521384QQihZ013QQcategoryZ29 757QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[KenH]

That thing keeps coming down in price, wasnt that nearly £17,500 a few months ago (same pictures)

[JC.]

yep!
When it comes down to a grand i'm having it. lol!

[KenH]

I might beat you to it:car1: